Doppler radar: Simrad VelocityTrack & Furuno DRS6A-NXT

Ben Ellison

Ben Ellison

Panbo editor, publisher & chief bottlewasher from 4/2005 until 8/2018, and now excited to have Ben Stein as very able publisher, webmaster, and editing colleague. Panbo is going to the next level in 2019 and beyond.

24 Responses

  1. Howard says:

    Ben,
    In the last Furuno screenshot is Gizmo showing up as an AiS target because you have multiple AIS systems on the network? (I.e. transponder AND a receiver)

  2. Ben Ellison Ben Ellison says:

    You’re observant, Howard, and also correct. The Furuno TZT2 is on a NMEA 2000 network with a Vesper XB8000 AIS Class B, but I was also running an Em-Trak B400.

  3. Richard C says:

    All of these Doppler radar products are a massive improvement over the old high current draw magnetron units. I don’t think you can go wrong with any of them. In my case I bought the Garmin Fantom 24 right after Ben’s review to replace a Garmin HD24. After a sail from Chesapeake to Maine and back, sometimes in heavy fog, I found the new features outstanding. One suggestion is to take the time to understand and use the new features. Practice out on the water in good viz and daylight before that night time sail in torrential rain and commercial traffic. This has been one of the best electronic improvements I made in a long time.

  4. emsusa says:

    Would love to see this for the Navico 4G radar. Huge installed base.

  5. Looks really nice, Ben! Now I have to wait & see if Raymarine will follow suit.. 🙂

  6. Howard says:

    I am not convinced that magnetron radar will completely go away. Many complain the bird finding performance of solid state to be lacking. I am a huge believer in solid state radar and the accompanying signal processing that it allows.
    If anyone at Furuno is listening- I would love to have a side by side real world comparison of a magentron radar and solid state radar. I will modify my radar mast accordingly.

  7. Ben Ellison Ben Ellison says:

    Good idea, Howard, but there would have to be side-by-side comparisons in many situations and weather conditions, and you still wouldn’t know for sure that each radar was performing at their optimum.
    Magnetron versus solid-state is a big issue since all the major manufacturers still offer both, and especially with Furuno because they introduced new open array magnetron radars just last year.
    Read what this Panbo reader heard in the Furuno booth in Fort Lauderdale and maybe add your thoughts:
    http://www.panbo.com/forum/2017/12/furuno-radar-nxt-solid-state-or-magnetron.html
    A somewhat comical aspect of this is that for many years none of the brands except Navico had solid-state and some of the competing salespeople came up with solid-state put downs that they now have to live with.

  8. Howard says:

    I am up to the challenge…
    Busy navigational challenges in Puget Sound and I will look for birds off the coast chasing Albacore tuna next summer.
    Too my knowledge, no manufacturer has marketed their solid state vs magentron based on performance characteristics.

  9. Patrick says:

    Magnetron Radar and Solid State radar are two different technologies.
    A magnetron can provide a very high transmitted pulse for a short time and it has a fixed transmission frequency. There are magnetron frequency agility radar, but it is military equipment that cost a huge amount of money.
    Magnetron radar has a fixed frequency but it also tends to spread unwanted frequencies (spurioses) and this makes it not easy to use doppler measurement as easily.
    A solid state radar does not give as high peak power but can provide a long transmit pulse that can be varied in frequency and / or phase. With modern signal processing of the received signal, you get high resolution (i. e. pulse compression or CHIRP). A radar pulse that bounces against an object that is moving changes frequency (doppler effect) and this frequency change is detected in the receiver. If the frequency decreases, the item moves away from you and if the frequency increases, the object moves towards you. In order for this to be measured on objects moving very slowly (= small frequency shift), the transmitted signal must be very stable and very clean, ie there must be no spurioses.
    Therefore, magnetron radar is not an option when it comes to these sophisticated equipment now available for pleasure boats.

  10. Ben Ellison Ben Ellison says:

    Note that Furuno sent in some corrections to the Doppler target highlighting comparison that I added to the text and to the feature matrix table.
    Also, another Furuno contact responded to Patrick’s comment by describing a commercial tuna fishing vessel that is using a 6AX with 6′ array and TZT2 12 MFD to see “individual birds (Man O’ War and large gulls) at 6-7 miles and flocks of 20-50 birds at 12-13 miles.”
    “We completely acknowledge that solid state/Doppler/broadband is here to stay and Furuno will be in the mix too. With that said, magnetron radar still puts out more power and in fact the X-Class radar actually added nearly 50% more power output on target by virtue of PRR design.”

  11. Howard says:

    Haven’t seen this elsewhere. Simrad has released “radar control units” Dedicated LED backlit LCD monitors/controls in 9″ and 16″
    http://www.simrad-yachting.com/en-US/Products/Radar/Simrad-R2009-Radar-Control-Unit-en-us.aspx
    http://www.simrad-yachting.com/en-US/Products/Radar/Simrad-R3016-Radar-Control-Unit-en-us.aspx
    Furuno also has some radars that are not available in the US that are similar.
    http://www.furuno.com/en/products/radar/FAR-1416
    http://www.furuno.com/en/products/radar/FAR-1426

  12. Ben Ellison Ben Ellison says:

    Thanks, Howard! Those radars are already available on the Simrad Professional side, but it makes great sense to also offer them via Simrad Yachting because they’re based on the same Navico Operating System (NOS) and should integrate well with other Simrad gear us recreational boaters are familiar with.
    https://www.navico-commercial.com/en-US/Products/Radars/Radar-Control-Units/

  13. Mic says:

    Any idea as to when will we see Raymarine’s answer to this. I’d pay for the upgrade but…. Strangely silent. Waiting…. zzzzzz

  14. Anonymous says:

    I would suggest you will see something from Raymarine at Miami this year.

  15. Ben Ellison Ben Ellison says:

    Raymarine Doppler radar would be great to see, and I will be in Miami, but note that this is the first I’ve heard of it and I have no idea who Anonymous is. On the other hand, Ray and most of the other companies can be good at keeping secrets.

  16. Saffy The Pook says:

    Given that I’m still waiting for Lighthouse III on my eS series chartplotters, I’m not holding my breath for doppler on the Quantum.

  17. Jim says:

    Cant wait to learn when doppler will be on 4G or Quantum radar systems.
    I will be making a system purchase decision soon, and I just have to guess right I suppose.

  18. Anonymous says:

    Lighthouse 3 for eS is out now.

  19. Ben Ellison Ben Ellison says:

    Thanks, anon. Lighthouse 3.3 discussion has been happening over on the Axiom/LH3 thread:
    http://www.panbo.com/archives/2017/02/bam_raymarine_axiom_mfds_lighthouse_3_realvision_3d_sonar_flir_m100200_clearcruise.html
    I got to briefly try it last week with Gizmo’s eS12 and Axiom7 and all went well. Both MFDs are now networking Navionics and C-Map charts, Quantum radar, FLIR M232 thermal cam, RayCam 220IP, and Axiom sonar. If anything, the eS seems faster than it was with LH2.

  20. Kees says:

    Jim,
    Raymarine just released Quantum 2, which supports Doppler. http://www.raymarine.com/marine-radar/quantum2/
    Navico 4G will never offer Doppler. Broadband (FMCW) doesn’t send out a fixed frequency so it cannot discern any Doppler shift. It seems logical that Navico is working on a Halo radome version in some form or fashion. 4G is now 7 years old, which is a long time in this market…
    I guess Raymarine (and their Quantum customers) must feel a little unlucky, introducing Quantum just as Furuno and Garmin released models with Doppler in 2016. This means that Quantum 1 only lasted 25 months.

  21. Ben Ellison Ben Ellison says:

    The original Quantum will stick around, I think, as solid and price competetive alternatives to Navico 3G and Garmin magnetron radomes.
    But Quantum 2 is certainly interesting. Ben Stein and I got a demo of a beta version in Miami and will report. Got to see Simrad Halo Velocity Track live too.

  22. Andy says:

    Kees:
    Doppler FMCW radar is indeed possible.
    http://irep.iium.edu.my/31730/1/p.tale.2013.wsediono.Contribution230_b.pdf
    I would hope to see something from them that wasn’t following the pack so to speak so it could be an interesting challenge, I’m sure if they wanted to port Halo to a dome they could have done so quite easily.

  23. As an Engineer with 30+ years experience with FMCW radar I also want to point out that Kee’s reasoning that the “non-constant frequency” of FMCW waveform does not allow it to measure Doppler is indeed a fallacy. We used an FMCW radar at Ka Band (30+GHz) to measure the speed, angle and range of a MACH 1 projectile (1″ diameter) coming directly at the radar.
    FMCW is also used extensively in Automotive collision avoidance radars and is very capable of range, angle and Doppler measurements. FMCW can also be used in other very sophisticated radar systems and should not be thought of as being crippled in any way.
    Implementing FMCW Radar systems can be complex and takes some care but can be exceptionally capable. The Broadband radar could have been implemented better but was a good first effort for SIMRAD.

  24. Alberto says:

    I have found this conversation very informative. Although mine is a belated comment I hope someone will reply. Seeing “individual birds (Man O’ War and large gulls) at 6-7 miles and flocks of 20-50 birds at 12-13 miles.” is impressive but is not what I am interested in. I have two main concerns:
    1) small floats that mark (usually badly) nets near the coast at night;
    2) ice floes bobbing up and down in a chop and sticking out of the sea surface by not more than a meter ( I am planning to sail in the Arctic);
    Can anyone comment on how these new solid state radars would/are performing with regards to my two concerns above ?
    Thank you

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