B&G H5000 tempts my racing heart

27 Responses

  1. Dan Corcoran (b393capt) says:

    Yes, it would be interesting to compare Hercules to the PB200 (on my Breeze Pleeze).
    Great entry Kees

  2. Tim says:

    I don’t think the Zeus mfds have a start line page? Or have I not found it yet?!

  3. Kees says:

    Hi Tim, you’re right — Zeus (at least version 1) did not include this. Let’s see what Zeus2 brings, and I will fix the entry.

  4. Dan Corcoran (b393capt) says:

    I am surprised to read the B&W display only uses a little less power. Sure about that?
    As I re-read your entry, I am salivating over all those features. Many of those features, case in point the correction of boat speed, contribute towards getting an outrageously accurate true wind (Sailing Wind)
    Kees, does B&W use their precise correction of sensor measurements to more accurately determine set & drift, while under sail, as well?

  5. Kees says:

    Hi Dan,
    B&G didn’t release an official power consumption figures, but I used my old screen consumption test: if the display stays cold it’s good, and my hand couldn’t even register a difference in ambient temperature when I saw the Graphic display at METS. My guess is that the consumption will be slightly above the existing Navico IS-20 (rated at 1.3 W max) and IS-40/Triton (rated at 1.8 W max). I say slightly above because of the bigger screen and the increased CPU power. We’ll see when the definitive consumption data comes in.
    As to your question on how they determine set & drift, I am hypothesizing a bit here, but certainly with Hercules you have very accurate Speed Through Water (compensated boat speed) which together with a good compass can be compared with the data from a GPS, delivering set & drift. That is exactly the sort of vector math that is quite simple but only B&G shows this on displays.
    The B&G Zeus SailSteer page that was referenced by Tim also shows a tidal vector. Garmin showed a comparable display at METS this as well, so we can see how important Furuno and Raymarine think the sailing market is by how quickly they catch up.

  6. mm says:

    has anyone seen a product comparison with WTP3?
    what about pros/cons of CanBus?

  7. Ben Ellison Ben Ellison says:

    I think that Raymarine has been doing Set & Drift calculations for many years. In fact, Dan mentioned it long ago when describing his boat’s electronics:
    http://www.panbo.com/features/DanC40Sail.htm
    Then again, in my experience this calculation is often sketchy because relatively small errors in boat speed and heading can produce large errors in set and drift.
    I suspect that there’s a lot about the ambitious H5000 system that won’t be clear until the manuals come out and the products ship. I doubt, for instance, that the H5000 autopilot only uses NMEA 0183 as the launch page suggests. Though I guess that is possible even with an N2K Pilot Controller since the central CPU unit seem capable of handling all sorts of input and output protocols.
    One thing that does seem obvious from the bezel styling and details like the top right Home page button is that these displays may also come out as accessories to the new Simrad NSO and NSS evo2 gear.
    http://www.panbo.com/archives/2013/11/simrad_nss_evo2_multi-touch_7-inch_to_16-inch_and_beyond.html
    Finally, anyone else notice that at $1,100 retail, the 5-inch Graphic Display costs almost as much as FOUR of the 4.3-inch Elite-4 fishfinder/plotters discussed last week?

  8. Dan Corcoran (b393capt) says:

    After adding a solid state compass and carefully calibrating speed, the Raymarine provided a very good set & drift while motoring, but not under sail.
    As there is no option to enter corrections for leeway at various apparent wind angles and speeds, IMO the E-80 calculates set & drift no different sailing then when motoring.
    Is the B&G different?

  9. Kees says:

    I received some feedback from a support manager working with Navico:

    • H3000 also already had level upgrades via a software key, no PCB upgrades necessary (but it required a special communication tool.) So that isn’t new for H5000 as I claimed.
    • The H5000 autopilot is indeed physically equivalent to a Simrad AC70 as I mentioned so it has one N2K and one NMEA0183 connection (through connection blocks, not Simnet or Micro C connectors).
    • The H5000 pilot controller does not work with a Simrad AC12/42.
    • H5000 does not support already installed mast displays that only have Fastnet. It requires mast displays that have a N2K connection.
    • The analogue displays must be connected through a special “basic Simnet” connection available on the H5000. If you connect those to a normal N2K network it will lock up the entire N2K network.
    • The big difference between WTP3 and H5000 is that WTP3 is fully customisable, whereas H5000 has a (large and expandable) set of functionality that can be configured, but not “completely rewritten”.

    I’ve asked whether leeway is considered for set + drift, answer not in yet.

  10. Jeff Shukis says:

    I’m seriously tempted by the H5000 system. I’ll be anxiously awaiting publication of the manuals.
    I really like the idea of web-based configuration and calibration of the instruments, and the ability to do motion compensation of speed and wind data. Here’s the question: Do you need to use the H5000 displays or, since this is an NMEA2000 system, can the processor spit out data to Triton or even Raymarine i70 instrument displays?
    About my only hesitation with the H5000 is the autopilot. I’m sure the B&G is very good, but is it as good as the Raymarine Evolution with it’s 9-axis motion sensor?

  11. Kees says:

    Hi Jeff,
    My information is that you can use ‘normal’ N2K displays but that they generally are not capable of putting the high update frequency to the same use as the H5000 displays, and of course they can only display the data fields that they are designed for.
    No matter what I started typing about the APs, I ended up typing something very subjective so I will refrain from answering that. I will say that 9-axis motion sensors are very cheap now. Digital motion sensors were made reliable and cheap through their use in car airbag sensors, and smartphones have accelerated this trend.

  12. Don Joyce says:

    I think its what is done with the data that distinguishes the autopilots. I think we have to wait to see what B&G does with the data going into the autopilot. There is a hint suggesting that the B&G autopilot handles sea state differently than the regular SIMRAD autopilot or the Raymarine Evolution pilot. The B&G pilot is specific to high performance sailing, while the other pilots are more for what I guess we can call average sail and power boats.
    There is an interesting blog in wavetrain:
    http://www.wavetrain.net/techniques-a-tactics/551-heavy-weather-helming-sculling-waves

  13. Jeff says:

    Hi Kees,
    intertial sensors are indeed “cheap as chips” right now. I just wonder which of the current generation of autopilots have them and – far more importantly – are making good use of the data.
    Adding a rate gyro to my circa 2007 Raymarine S3 turned it from an unimpressive device into a really nice helmsman, and that was a very simple gyro, probably only one axis. The new Raymarine advertises a nine axis sensor, but they don’t say what they are doing with the data. The Simrad/B&G pilots have access to 3-axis data, but again it’s not clear what sort of algorithms exist to use the data. The new B&G H5000 pilot also has access, via NMEA2000, to three axis data, and they advertise special a heavy weather mode, but again no detail.
    Has anyone, for example, built an autopilot that can steer an “S” course up and down waves?

  14. https://www.google.com/accounts/o8/id?id=AItOawmk1bKYxBMr_SLPKy678FMsQNN7jU8rzhs says:

    The most tempting for me is that the H5000 will happily feed its data over wifi to computers, phones and tablets. Combined with a lower cost then its predecessors this might finally open a path for low cost 3rd party applications for performance tuning. To get anything out of the H3000 I have at the moment would take a $150 usb cable.

  15. mike Fozo says:

    Is there any reason why one couldn’t use a Triton MFD with the H5000 instead of a 20/20 display?

  16. Kees says:

    Mike,
    Yes you can use Tritons (or even any other NMEA2000 data display) with H5000.

  17. Tom says:

    Kees, worth noting that H5000 is pretty dependent on Navico’s source selection. The H5000 CPU is outputting boat speed and wind data in the standard PGNs but some displays may be confused by the multiple sources of data. Triton displays obviously handle this nicely anyway but I have no idea how well an i70 would work. Might just need extra tweaking.

  18. emsusa says:

    Also worth noting that H5000 generates data the Triton doesn’t know about, e.g. polar data (target boatspeed, etc). Triton displays cannot show these higher level functions.

  19. Tom says:

    Actually I think it can show most of the h5000 data types as most of them were in H3000 bridged using the original Zeus. I am sure there are a few exceptions. You should probably not set damping or do auto source selection from triton in an H5000 system.

  20. Sheldon Haynie says:

    Looking at installing a Hercules level H5000 to replace the ca 2002 Hercules/Hydra system on a classic yawl that I club race inshore and cruise casually, but have dreams of sailing from SFBay back to Chesapeake. Plethora of heading/Motion detectors and how they are used has me a bit amused/confused.
    Please chime in if you have a better understanding, here’s the plan:
    Basic parameters: (no particular calculation needed, can be direct display, speed & AWA/AWS will be better if calibrated in Hercules)
    COG/SOG from N2K @ 10 Hz GPS (planning ZG100 on stern Rail)
    Heading & Rate from N2K @ 10 Hz (Maretron SSC300, not to go into the B&G compass swamp)
    Boat speed calculated from port/starboard bilge paddlewheels rate.
    AWA & AWS from Masthead 213 unit over analog to Hercules
    Computed: (Hydra level availability)
    TWA, TWD, and TWS from vectors of speed/AWS/AWA/Heading
    Tide rate and Tide Set from heading/speed/cog/sog
    Refined computation: (Hercules level)
    Target Wind angle & Target boat speed from Polar table/AWA/AWS
    “Smoothed” TWA, TWS, TWD from integration of Motion control signals.
    Laylines & Starting line with Tide correction
    Not sure what differences are between:
    H5000 $1000 3 axis motion sensor part 000-11551-001
    and the “WTP3 3D Motion sensor: http://www.bandg.com/en-GB/Products/WTP3-3D-Motion-Sensor/
    and why one would be preferred over another?

  21. Dan Corcoran (b393capt) says:

    I have room for a Zues3 and two triton2’s over the companionway of my J/109.
    Any thoughts if a Zues3 and H5000 wouldn’t be a better choice? (I don’t have the h5000 CPU’s, but may add in the future after my old ockam reaches end of life)

  22. Dan Corcoran (b393capt) says:

    Is B&G H5000 graphic display and Triton2 graphic display capabilities for sailors essentially identical?

  23. emsusa says:

    Dan, the T2 displays will show nearly all H5000 data. I don’t think the T2 has starting line feature simply due to the smaller screen.

  24. Anonymous says:

    The H5000 GFD is rectangular and a nice format like the old FFD’s vs the Triton
    Triton2 Display Size
    4.1″
    Resolution
    320 x 240
    Power Consumption
    1.0 Watts (Min), 1.9 Watts (Max)
    H5000 GFD
    5″ diagonal
    480×270, 1.9-2.3 watts
    If your goal is to have an intermediate system with NMEA2000 based sensors then go with the Triton and don’t bother with the H5k, unless you are willing to replace the Masthead sensor and add the motion detection. The H5000 is designed to use analog sensors and do the high speed processing of them to give faster than NMEA updates which would matter for an Autopilot in challenging conditions, but not so much for day sailing.

  25. Dan Corcoran (b393capt) says:

    This is for a j109 sailboat, mostly used for racing phrf and one design, it has a tall b&g masthead sensor, signet paddlewheel, nmea0813 Airmar depth sensor, simrad rc42 rate compass, simrad rc36 rate compass, AP26 autopilot head, AC20 autopilot, zues T12, navico GPS 1330,Simrad GPS GS25, GoFree, ockam brain, and 4 matrx 007 displays. The displays are very hard to read or I would leave this as a project for another year.

  26. emsusa says:

    Dan, you have parts in place that justify using an H5000 CPU, which will give you much better data than a pure n2k system, e.g. you can cal True Wind Angle with H5000 similar to the Ockam. I am happy to brainstorm the system design with you. Ben has my contact info.
    The H5000 Motion CPU is an add-on and not required for a basic H5 system.

  27. Dan Corcoran (b393capt) says:

    Terrific, Ben has my contact info als, or use my fn followed by @servicespan.net

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