Panbo

New Garmin GPSMap 741sx, 741, etc.; signs of what's to come?

... written for Panbo by Ben Ellison and posted on Nov 12, 2012
Garmin_GPSmap_741xs_chart_chirp_screen.jpg

I believe that Garmin has had a tremendous run with the GPSMap 700 Series introduced in January, 2010, but consider all that's different in the new premier models announced this morning (along with new 500 Series models too). That 7-inch WVGA screen is multi-touch, that sleeker casing can be flat as well as flush mounted, and the processor inside is purportedly 60% faster. Yes, it includes WiFi for easy integration with BlueChart Mobile and apps to come. And there's more...

The new GPSmap 741 also includes both U.S. coastal and lake cartography and the sounder included in the "sx" model not only features 1kW of something called "HD-ID sonar technology" but also a 600W {corrected 11/15} version of Garmin's Spread Spectrum CHIRP capabilities previously available only in the GSD 26, a black box that costs more than this plotter/fishfinder combo. Meanwhile, the similar but even less expensive echomap 70s (below) -- aimed at freshwater users -- lacks the CHIRP technology but includes the sx's ability to record sonar. And all the new 7-inch displays have an analog camera input, and, though not listed, I've learned that the 7X1 models have Bluetooth and Ant wireless as well as WiFi. Plus I detect some interesting updates to the Garmin touch interface, like that bottom menu and the "back" button...

Garmin_echomap_70s.jpg

Note that like previous 7XX chart plotters and combos, the new 7X1 "premier" models and the 70x will only network with each other and Garmin 4XXX and greater MFDs over NMEA 2000, not over Ethernet. Thus the sharing of radar, sonar and g2 Vision chart cards is not possible, though the design does include an Ethernet port for direct hookup of a Garmin radar. (In fact, the new 7X1 models seem to have two Ethernet ports though I don't yet know what the second one is for.) Also note that the 7X1 and 70s use microSD cards instead the full size ones, which I consider unfortunate. On the other hand, all of Garmin's new displays, including the GPSmap 5XX models and echomap 50s include a GPS/GLOSNOSS receiver that refreshes position, SOG and COG tens times a second!
   Probably the best place to start investigating these units is at the new mini site garmin/combos. There you'll also find a clever new tag line -- the "Power of Simple" -- along with this tease: "And you will definitely find the Power of Simple in all the new Garmin marine products coming your way in 2013." Now it's time for first look opinions. How well did Garmin parry all the competition that's appeared in the 7-inch and smaller combo/MFD category? How will Garmin's latest features translate into the inevitable refresh of their fully networked series? (I'm glad to add that Kees Verruijt will be at METS this week and will hopefully gets his hands on this new gear.)

Garmin_GPSmap_527sx.jpg

PS 11/14: Garmin sent me a booty shot of the new GPSmap 7X1 plotter/fishfinder and it explains the two Ethernet ports, I think. We may need to see actual products and manuals to know more, but this sure is a highly connected 7-inch display, particularly for one that doesn't claim to be fully networked or even multifunction. (Also, I have already asked how a port can be power and NMEA 0183 with only two pins ;-)

Garmin_GPSMap_7X1sx_booty_shot.jpg

PPS 11/16: Garmin sent an updated booty shot of the new GPSmap 7X1 plotter/fishfinder which will answer some of the questions raised in the comments and also holds out hope for future expandability (the Network port!). I'll take down the earlier image soon.

Garmin_7X1_rear_case_view_update_11-15-2012.jpg

Comments

I've been looking at the gallery images on the mini site...

http://sites.garmin.com/combos/gallery/

...and think that the very flat, mostly glass face design of the new 7-inch displays is significant. Something I've learned from the Furuno TZT is that some touch commands are easier when there's no protruding bezel (especially in the corners). The design is also going to look sharp when flat or flush mounted.

Is there any doubt that this design will come to Garmin's bigger screens?

Posted by: Ben at November 12, 2012 11:28 AM | Reply

I am surprised it didn't come to the bigger screens first. The 5215 is what, 6 years old? The 740s is a baby by comparison. I am surprised Garmin could make chirp so affordable so quickly.

Posted by: stiletto at November 12, 2012 1:09 PM | Reply

Standby the Japanese and Chinese are about to enter the Chirp market ......

Posted by: Anonymous at November 12, 2012 2:22 PM | Reply

Garmin is pushing the 10Hz update rate for the GPS receiver. I don't understand this.To my knowledge, the GPS system can only provide a new fix at 1Hz so what would this 10Hz update rate contribute with?
BR
Robert

Posted by: Robert at November 12, 2012 2:23 PM | Reply

Robert, 1Hz used to be the standard, but faster updating GPS sensors have been around for years. Garmin made a good video comparing 1 and 10Hz performance when they introduced their 19x Marine GPS last summer: http://goo.gl/9WCgl

Frankly I've always thought that Garmin's 17x 1Hz GPS was plenty good enough -- it seems particularly clever about calculating COG at slow speeds -- and that you'd need a fast boat to see much improvement from 5 or 10Hz...but the video tells a different story.

Posted by: Ben in reply to Robert at November 12, 2012 3:32 PM | Reply

Hoping for a GMI 10 successor coming soon.

Posted by: Paul at November 12, 2012 3:48 PM | Reply

I wonder - if one has a 4/5/6/7000 series MFD, could you install one of the 741xs with a linked CHIRP transducer and then have the same sonor info on the other MFD thru a network connection? Wouldn't that be nice?

"The power of simple"... Reminds me of Comcast's Xfinity slogan - "The future of awesome"!

Posted by: Andre at November 12, 2012 4:43 PM | Reply

Can't do it, Garmin doesn't have full networking on the 741sx. No sharing fish finder data.

Posted by: stiletto at November 12, 2012 5:00 PM | Reply

I think you're right, Stiletto, but we still don't know what the second Ethernet port on the 7X1 combo displays is for. Interestingly, but possibly irrelevant, the echomap 70s which does not have CHIRP also does not have two Ethernet ports. (It doesn't have a video port either, which I've corrected in the text above.)

Posted by: Ben in reply to stiletto at November 12, 2012 6:44 PM | Reply

Lets hope Bluechart Mobile is released soon to give us some hands on.

Posted by: Brian at November 12, 2012 7:33 PM | Reply

Since they already have the wider units covered with the GSD-26 the 700 series with CHIRP adds to the lower end users who have needs to upgrade on smaller boats. such as 17' to 21' .

Posted by: Anonymous in reply to stiletto at November 12, 2012 8:36 PM | Reply

It concerns me that Garmin seem to date the MFDs quite regularly but the rest of their marine systems take a lot of time , autopilots slow to materialise. Radar models as well. GMI 10 is now ancient etc. ais/VHS getting a little dated. They need to keep up with the other three manufacturers.

Dave

Posted by: Dave at November 12, 2012 8:45 PM | Reply

Except the wider units have a slower processor, and a less capable screen.

Posted by: Anonymous in reply to Anonymous at November 13, 2012 7:42 AM | Reply

Been waiting for these to come out, I heard the rumours but my first impression is could and should of done better. They don't look partially good or a move forward from where they are today, all they have seemed to do is add glass over the screen.

I was hoping it was going to be a good piece of visual kit and challenge the New Raymarine gear we have seen over the last couple of years.

Oh well- Note:- Garmin most do better next time.

Posted by: Graham at November 13, 2012 2:16 PM | Reply

Except that the fish finder is probably the best built in fish finder that has ever been put in a combo unit.

Posted by: stiletto at November 13, 2012 2:20 PM | Reply

Except the costs of the $1000 + transducers will be for nill. I see it as a nice to have, but few will want to invest in a VERY expensive transducer in a tiny display.

Chirp has been proven to be difficult to actually "deliver". Certainly, not in garmin's "auto" mode.

Posted by: Anonymous in reply to stiletto at November 14, 2012 12:54 AM | Reply

Good point. But it is only $200 more than 740s and you can always use pulse transducers if you want. Definitely going to be interesting how their new chirp translates into the 7" screen and how well it performs.

Posted by: stiletto at November 14, 2012 7:41 AM | Reply

I just added a booty shot of the GPSmap 7x1sx plotter/fishfinder/plus display. Interesting but to some extent mysterious!

Incidentally, when someone says marine electronics will become dominated by consumer tablets and off the shelf sensors, and that it's really all about software, this is the kind of specialized connectivity picture I need them to explain.

Posted by: Ben at November 14, 2012 1:36 PM | Reply

That would be a huge mistake. In some of the freq's a conventional transducer used on a Chirp system, you may loose up to 75% of the signal--that's comes straight from Airmar's literature.

I reiterate, a Chirp system in a 7" screen seems silly when you factor in a transducer that can easily cost more than the screen!

Garmin seems to be going for the "wow" factor and not the practical one.

Maybe just an attempt to win back some of their market share. I see they were down quite a bit this past year.

Posted by: Anonymous in reply to stiletto at November 14, 2012 9:45 PM | Reply

Thanks for the rear shot Ben.

The following are very weird;

- The back panel says ECHOmap when it can't be an ECHOmap due to the radar and video ports.

- Power plug only has two pins but is mislabelled "Power/NMEA0183"

- Two multi pin sonar ports (blue one and yellow one). The yellow one has to be a mislabelled 0183 port and the other (blue) one (8 pin) must be for the transducer.

- "External sonar" network port. It's probably there to run a side scan/forward looking module that is yet to be announced. Maybe you can link an ECHOmap to a 741XS so they both run Chirp?

More questions than answers now. I wish you could download a manual for the 741xs and all would be revealed.

Posted by: Pete at November 14, 2012 11:15 PM | Reply

Anonymous,

There are already 600W Chirp transducers at a reasonable price. Around USD750 each which isn't even half the price of the screen.

See the Airmar B75L, B75M and B75H. There are probably more models available or coming. Note that Raymarine require running two of the above in a pair but maybe Garmin doesn't, time will tell.

For me I'd be very happy with a chirp system running just the high frequencies out of one transducer for the fishing I do.

Posted by: Pete in reply to Anonymous at November 15, 2012 1:32 AM | Reply

I think we should consider that backside photo as the prototype or photo dummy that it is. Let's not make presumptions!

However, I did hear from Garmin the "the additional Ethernet port is for future purposes/capabilities" which I think may mean that one day the 7X1sx can output CHIRP to other displays. MAYBE.

Also I was assured that the new 700 series do have NMEA 0183 even if it's not yet listed in the specs.

And finally I learned that while the sx models do have 1kW of "HD-ID sonar" power they CHIRP at a max of 600W (which I corrected in the text above).

Posted by: Ben in reply to Pete at November 15, 2012 10:36 AM | Reply

I had a look at the new Garmins at METS. I am not impressed , it a simple restyling really, compared to the huge advances Simrad/BG and especially Raymarine have made, Garmin are bobbing around in their wake.

Raymarine, have really pulled out the stops with a complete reworking of all their product into the "i" range, i40,i50,i60 i70 and they are not just simple refreshes.

Come on Garmin, get the finger out.

Dave

Posted by: Dave at November 15, 2012 10:43 AM | Reply

I believe it falls back to pulse sonar if it detects a pulse sonar transducer. Thus the 1kW HD-ID sonar vs 600W Chirp.

Posted by: stiletto in reply to Anonymous at November 15, 2012 11:14 AM | Reply

To most consumers, $750 for half a transducer isn't a reasonable price. They are used to bundle prices where GPS/FF is one price, bundled with transducer is maybe $100 more. It is going to be a tough sell to average Joe for sure.

Posted by: stiletto in reply to Pete at November 15, 2012 11:15 AM | Reply

Hello Ben,
What do you mean by sensor?

What I am saying is that the satellites are not able to provide underlying data to calculate the position more than once per second. Is not that true?

If I'm right the only thing Garmin could do is to interpolate 9 positions between two true calculated positions, then I am not impressed.

If I am wrong, I stand corrected.
BR
Robert

Posted by: Robert in reply to Ben at November 15, 2012 2:04 PM | Reply

The satellites dont provide a position directly, its basically a time of flight LOP calculation, hence positional rate updates are a function of the processing power of the receiver. a 1Hz or 10Hz update rate dont necessarily mean you are getting increased update frequency, merely that the receiver is feeding you the information at a faster rate ( it could be the same position!)

Dave

Posted by: Dave at November 15, 2012 4:30 PM | Reply

@Robert ... if I recall correctly ... the fastest a GPS receiver (multi channel C/A code tracking only) can produce a position fix is in the 10 ms range. But that's a very expensive receiver with a lot of horsepower.

To get the cost down, the 1 Hz rate has been typical in consumer gear for quite some time, but lately seems 10 Hz is coming down the cost curve.

Posted by: Paul in reply to Robert at November 15, 2012 4:49 PM | Reply

Max power in CHIRP mode is not 600W. 600W CHIRP would fry any transducer immediately. Max continuous wave (cw) power for B265 is 12-18W depending on frequency. For R399 I think max cw power is 65W.

Posted by: abbor at November 15, 2012 5:29 PM | Reply

Abbor, the 600W number came right from Garmin. Also, here's a small boat B75 CHIRP transducer advertised as 600W: http://goo.gl/eSUGT

I'm confused!

Posted by: Ben in reply to abbor at November 15, 2012 5:41 PM | Reply

I saw these plotters at METS. I'm not sure what Dave saw, but when I was there the displays were off, and could not be switched on. More later.

Posted by: Kees at November 15, 2012 5:43 PM | Reply

"I had a look at the new Garmins at METS. I am not impressed." Dave, I just heard that the new Garmins weren't even operational at METS. And you're dissing them already? Please specify what new design elements would have made you happy.

Some of your other Garmin bashing rings hollow too. Have you actually checked out all the extensions they've made to the autopilot line? (Like the new HP20: http://goo.gl/GiS4Z ) And why should Garmin update its VHF radios when the other major manufacturers haven't yet put out N2K sets that integrate so well with AIS and MFDs? (Well, that did just change for Navico as we'll post on Panbo soon.)

Posted by: Ben in reply to Dave at November 15, 2012 6:07 PM | Reply

Thanks for that link Ben. That new AP is slick!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=kf7_2tR-Das

Posted by: Anonymous at November 15, 2012 9:22 PM | Reply

Ha! Garmin just sent a new and fairly different image of the 7X1 backside, posted above. It clears up some confusion in the comments and confirms the presence of NMEA 0183 in the device. It also seems to support my conjecture that having the additional Ethernet port for "future purposes/capabilities" may mean networked fishfinding.

Posted by: Ben at November 16, 2012 12:37 PM | Reply

There will be more 300 and 600W Airmar Transducers soon, like the TM130. Airmar already showed them at METS... Cheap and the same size as the P39 :)

Posted by: Anonymous at November 16, 2012 5:05 PM | Reply

Ben I'm not dissing anyone. It's clear that Garmin have been slow to update te product range when you compare it to Simrad and especially Raymarine. I mean the gmi 10 is now well down the pack. The quoted specs from the rep on the new 7 series shows its an evolutionary product. But more importantly in my view Garmin actually don't need plotter upgrades. That's their strength. I mean only now with nexus will they begin to offer a full instrument set and that product needs a refresh anyway.

Compare to the raft of product introductions from raymarine, Simrads now very advanced range , and even furuno, have moved the game on. Garmin places too much focus on plotters, a market space it's very comfortable with. Arguably no range need be quite that extensive with a number of overlapping MFDs. Equally they have taken a long tie with the iThingy integration and even now it's more a mapping app with an interface.

I like Garmin , very good reliable products at the right price, my boat currently sports am all Garmin affair. It's just I feel the need to focus on expanding and refreshing everything other then plotters.

Dave

Posted by: Anonymous at November 17, 2012 5:49 PM | Reply

I went to METS this year as well. My first time. I spoke to one of the guys on the Garmin stand and he said the units couldn't be powered on. I latter spoke to a guy on the Raymarine stand who told me, with some glee, that the Garmin units had  worked for a hour or so but were crashing so much that they had to power them off. I feel for the Garmin team. Sending unfinished software to a trade show is always a gamble. I have been in that situation before.

So I can't really comment on what the software does but I'm looking forward to playing with one before we decide on the new kit for the boat. "the power of simple" is a good line I hope they live up to it. I'll keep a open mind.

Look wise, I guess I wasn't impressed. They felt dated. The buttons are big and clunky.  The shapes are a bit 1990's. I know that's a bit vague and that look might appeal to others. Mind you i did like the flush screen. Let's see what the software is like but we live on board and my wife likes stuff to look "right". I have to share this quote from her and hope she doesn't read this. "I don't think it would go with the new cushions". That had me in stitches and the Garmin guy had to suppress a smirk.

On the subject of Autopilot innovation let me rant a bit. I agree that the GHP20 is interesting but is it innovation or evolution. I applaud them for going brushless but it is just the next logical step. My view is there hasn't been any real innovation in autopilots for years. Yes they have added fishing patterns and extended the auto release type stuff but I still have to go out and swing my fluxgate compass. I have to do a sea trial to set up my PID gains. I say PID as I'm sure that's the core of what most of them are using (apart from possibly furuno). Half the guys I know haven't even bothered doing that and live with poor performance. Steering to wind is poor in all the autopilots I have used on other people's boat. I was expecting a trickle down form the pilots on the big round the world boats. The problem is, I suspect, the big guys make a lot from the MFD's and people still buy autopilots so why invest. Maybe we need a open source autopilot project a bit like this one for hobby helicopters. http://www.openpilot.org/.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 18, 2012 4:33 AM | Reply

Now let me rant a bit, anon, because your takedown of Garmin's autopilot technology seems somewhat ignorant. Plus the story of that ap system is worth knowing for anyone considering Garmin for primary systems.

It's hard to innovate autopilots, especially for an unknown company, but that's exactly what Nautamatics was doing back in 2004 when I wrote a column called "Brains in the Bilge" (that I'm still proud of):

http://pmy.prod.aimstaging.com/navigation/brains-bilge

In 2007 Garmin bought Nautamatics and set up an AP development lab in Oregon largely to keep the brains behind the pilot happy (and I believe John Ford is still there). In late 2008 I got to witness the commissioning of the Garminized AP on a difficult twin jet boat and it was amazing how easily it learned the boat and how well it could handle it:

http://www.powerandmotoryacht.com/navigation/autopilot-garminized

Since then Garmin's AP has evolved into sailboats, non-hydraulic steering systems, Volvo IPS, etc. while other pilots have gotten some of its innovations, like the ability to work without a (sometimes unreliable) rudder sensor. But I'm not sure that there's any AP like Garmin's yet. Only Furuno, for instance, has come up with something like Shadow Drive, which is a very cool feature. And I'm not sure any other AP monitors and make use of a powerboat's tachometer readings.

At any rate, you're wrong to presume that Garmin's AP is like your own. Just like this AP story illustrates how wrong Dave is to consider Garmin just a plotter company.

Most recently Garmin seems to have focused a lot of development energy into CHIRP and fishfinding in general. Which is reflected in the new 7X1sx products. And let's remember that Garmin bought Interphase forward looking sonar this year, and also Nexus performance sailing instrumentation. I'm sure they're being Garminized right now. They've also acquired and integrated weather data and apps companies in recent years, and you'll soon see one result in BlueChart Mobile.

So, Dave, I ask again: What specific new features in the 7x1 Series would have made you happy? It has multi-touch, WiFi, and Bluetooth, right, and none of us know what interface changes were made. Let me put it another way: What's not possible with these displays or the coming refreshed 6- and 7000 series MFDs assuming they add the same hardware features?

Posted by: Ben in reply to Anonymous at November 18, 2012 9:11 AM | Reply

"I have to do a sea trial to set up my PID gains. I say PID as I'm sure that's the core of what most of them are using (apart from possibly furuno)."

What is wrong with PID? Of course everybody basically does PID, with embellishments on top in order to fine tune performance. I remember an IT university professor who tried a self-learning approach but that failed miserably.

"Half the guys I know haven't even bothered doing that and live with poor performance."

So what is your point? That your friends are sloppy?

"Steering to wind is poor in all the autopilots I have used on other people's boat."

There are a good number of people that under-spec their AP. This is a very, very bad idea.

My AP (Simrad AC42, hydraulic ram, NMEA 2000 network) keeps a better course on any point of sail than I can. Even close hauled, it can sail to 24 degrees off the wind very effectively. After a jibe it even keeps the boat a few degrees off the final course for a while to accelerate. It also works really well in a following F8/9, haven't sailed it in more wind, sorry.

I'm pretty sure none of your "guys you know" have a Simrad AC-12 or AC-42 AP, because it does not let you run the autopilot until you complete calibration (both dockside and sea trials).

"I was expecting a trickle down form the pilots on the big round the world boats."

Those guys generally run B&G and NKE. NKE keeps it to itself, they have no "consumer" link. B&G's new Triton APs are the same as Simrad.

How would Garmin get a trickle down? Please elaborate.

Posted by: Kees in reply to Anonymous at November 18, 2012 12:27 PM | Reply

Simply this...
CHIRP is the future of sonar...both in recreational and commercial.

Simrad's BSM-2 has had a problem filled path to date but the latest software fix seems to have helped.

Garmin's GSD-26 has had a clear sailing from the start and adding CHIRP to its 700 series is going to be very positive.

Raymarine's CHIRP has not had a large following and of course Furuno is slated for it coming out soon after Miami.
Other CHIRP players will soon be Koden, Hummingbird, Geonav,Wesmar, MAQ.

Regardless of manufacturer or model...it is going to be an interesting transition into recreational CHIRP over the next two years.

I was on a charter in Alaska that had the GSD-26 and spent as much time learning about CHIRP as I did fishing.

Posted by: geo at November 18, 2012 12:32 PM | Reply

Can you confirm if the echomap 70S has NMEA 0183 to display AIS from a standard/horizon GX2150? The specs list says "yes" under display AIS tracks...

Posted by: GZ at March 14, 2013 9:26 AM | Reply

Well, it's odd that the Echomap 70s page doesn't specify "NMEA 0183 compatible and NMEA 2000® certified" like the similar GPSMap 74x plotter/sounders do -- and manuals aren't available yet -- but I think that it's pretty safe to presume that the 70s "Supports AIS (tracks target ships' position)" over 0183 (or 2000) and thus will work with the Matrix AIS radio target output.

Posted by: Ben in reply to GZ at March 14, 2013 11:20 AM | Reply

Let's see if I have this right. The 741sx is only 600 watts in Chirp. Does that mean single band (you must decide which frequency range, low or high), or will it give you dual band? I thought that Chirp was superior to pulse at lower power, so a 600 w Chirp would be equal or better, to a 1000w pulse unit? What will the capabilities of the 741sx be, depth and target wise, and what would it be compared to, pulse wise? Last but not least, has Airmar come out with 600 watt Tansducers, dual band, to support this unit? Just trying to learn. Thanks, guys.

Posted by: max at May 14, 2013 10:14 PM | Reply

Airmar has made a dual band B765 CHIRP transducer in the same housing as the B744V 600W pulse version but 741xs is only single band so it can't utilize both elements of this transducer.

With the typical transducers to be used with 741xs, the 600W power should not be a limitation. A B75 transducer can only take 10W RMS continuous wave. I don't know the transmit length of 741xs. For BSM-2 it's 70ms, this means the transmit power needs to be limited to about 140W not to overheat and destroy the transducer when transmitting the longest CHIRPs.

CHIRP has a gain over pulse also when it comes to depth penetration, but the biggest advantage is resolution and target separation as the depths increase. A CHIRP sounder will have the same resolution for any depth when using the same band. With pulse sonar the pulse length increases and resolution goes down with increased depths.

Posted by: abbor at May 15, 2013 8:06 AM | Reply

Correct,. the 741xs in CHIRP uses a single band only. Airmar has the B75,B175 and TM150 single band 8 pin transducers for this unit.
Using a B175 L the 741s will be able to work effectively at 800'.
But this unit is more for shallow to mid water use.

Posted by: Gil at May 15, 2013 9:47 AM | Reply

Thank you both. This helps to clarify. It will be interesting to see what the other manufacturers do to "catch up" to Garmin, with this sounder.

Posted by: max at May 15, 2013 11:57 AM | Reply

I personally don't see traditional sounders totally leaving the playing field untill the CHIRP dual band units come dwomn in price.

Even the single band 741xs with a B175L will be at the $3000. range.
A Furuno FCV585 and a Tm260 is at the $1700. range and will still put one on the fish from top water and down deep.
And the new Furuno GP1870F is a nice unit that is selling as soon as they hit the floor.

So many good tone burst options in lessor price range that will still perform.

Posted by: Gil at May 15, 2013 1:04 PM | Reply

With the TM75M the 741xs would probably come in at around $2000 I believe.

Posted by: stiletto at May 15, 2013 1:20 PM | Reply

Actually that should have been TM150C-M. The 741xs MSRP is $1699 and I had read the TM150C-M would be around $299. But no idea how real that transducer price is.

Posted by: stiletto at May 15, 2013 4:47 PM | Reply

527xs with B175M will be about $1500. 527xs is better suited than 727xs as fishfinder only due to the vertical screen with 640 points resolution vertically.

Posted by: abbor at May 15, 2013 5:38 PM | Reply

BEWARE OF CHIRP
I have the 741xs. Its a great machine HOWEVER I have been monumentally disappointed with the CHIRP sonar. Its identiifes fish OK but simply will not show you botton features like ledges and wrecks. Its awful. I have it side by side with an older Furuno NavNet and and the 10 yr old furuno blows away the modern CHIRP. That sonar was the only reaso I upgraded and spent the big money on the right ducer (and double size hole thru my hull).
Do not but this unit if the sonar is your main goal. Much like it did on the 740S, the sonar simply sucks.

Posted by: WestFlorida at November 4, 2013 6:29 PM | Reply

Which transducer do you have? I've used 527xs with TM150M and B75H. At which depths do you typically fish?

Posted by: abbor at November 4, 2013 7:29 PM | Reply

Lets see..you are showing fish..and that is exactly what a single band CHIRP is supposed to do.
Find and show fish...that is its designed task

A single band CHIRP was not supposed to be as a down scan bottom detail sonar.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 4, 2013 8:48 PM | Reply

The lack of bottom detail is most probably caused by a too wide transducer cone for the depth. A large signal cone will average out the bottom details.

Posted by: abbor at November 5, 2013 10:45 AM | Reply

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